Discussion:
Decent alpha system for OpenVMS newbie
(too old to reply)
jfragemann
2005-11-24 18:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi people,

I would like to try running a web server on OpenVMS. I have no prior
experience with this interesting operating system.

I would like a decent alpha system for playing around with and learn
more. I do not plan on using the system extensively for actual web
hosting, but merely to learn how to run web servers and various modules
such as SSL and SSH authentication under OpenVMS.

Any suggestions? Also, it would be nice if the system could handle
Mozilla as well, without too much sweat. I know this could be a problem
for the older versions.

Thanks,

Regards, Jurgen
Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER
2005-11-24 19:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by jfragemann
I would like to try running a web server on OpenVMS. I have no prior
experience with this interesting operating system.
Welcome to the club.

http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/
Post by jfragemann
I would like a decent alpha system for playing around with and learn
more. I do not plan on using the system extensively for actual web
hosting, but merely to learn how to run web servers and various modules
such as SSL and SSH authentication under OpenVMS.
Start with a EV56 or better a EV6 (or else you have to forget JAVA, ...)
and don't take one with an unsupported (by VMS) disk or graphics controller.
I'd take a PWS600au or a DS10/XP900 or a XP1000 if you get them cheap.
And better use enough memory (512MB and up) or else the system crawls.

http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/doc/
Post by jfragemann
Any suggestions? Also, it would be nice if the system could handle
Mozilla as well, without too much sweat. I know this could be a problem
for the older versions.
OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 w/ ECOs (UPDATE V1, ...)
DECNET_OSI V8.2 + ECO 1 (only if you have more than 1 VMS system)
DWMOTIF (CDE) V1.5 + ECO 1
TCPIP V5.5-11ECO 1
CSWB (Mozilla) V1.7-11 + GTK V1.2-10 + OPL V1.0-0A9
CSWS (Apache) V2.1 + CSWS_PERL V2.1 + CSWS_PHP V1.3
JAVA V1.4-24P2
PERL V5.8-6
SSL V1.2
and maybe also
CSWS_JAVA (Tomcat) V3.0
DFU V3.1-1
MMOV V2.2-1 (AVI Player)
for a start
--
Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
Network and OpenVMS system specialist
E-mail ***@langstoeger.at
A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist
Tom Linden
2005-11-24 23:03:43 UTC
Permalink
On 24 Nov 2005 20:13:23 +0100, Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER
Post by Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER
Post by jfragemann
I would like to try running a web server on OpenVMS. I have no prior
experience with this interesting operating system.
Welcome to the club.
http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/
Post by jfragemann
I would like a decent alpha system for playing around with and learn
more. I do not plan on using the system extensively for actual web
hosting, but merely to learn how to run web servers and various modules
such as SSL and SSH authentication under OpenVMS.
Start with a EV56 or better a EV6 (or else you have to forget JAVA, ...)
and don't take one with an unsupported (by VMS) disk or graphics controller.
I'd take a PWS600au or a DS10/XP900 or a XP1000 if you get them cheap.
And better use enough memory (512MB and up) or else the system crawls.
The XP1000 is a significant improvement over the PWS600au. If you get the
latter,
aka Miata make sure it is the Miata GL. The former won't auto restart
after power
outage owing to a dumb power switch
Post by Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER
http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/doc/
Post by jfragemann
Any suggestions? Also, it would be nice if the system could handle
Mozilla as well, without too much sweat. I know this could be a problem
for the older versions.
OpenVMS Alpha V8.2 w/ ECOs (UPDATE V1, ...)
DECNET_OSI V8.2 + ECO 1 (only if you have more than 1 VMS system)
DWMOTIF (CDE) V1.5 + ECO 1
TCPIP V5.5-11ECO 1
CSWB (Mozilla) V1.7-11 + GTK V1.2-10 + OPL V1.0-0A9
CSWS (Apache) V2.1 + CSWS_PERL V2.1 + CSWS_PHP V1.3
Instead of Apache you should try WASD
http://wasd.vsm.com.au/wasd/
Post by Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER
JAVA V1.4-24P2
PERL V5.8-6
SSL V1.2
and maybe also
CSWS_JAVA (Tomcat) V3.0
DFU V3.1-1
MMOV V2.2-1 (AVI Player)
for a start
jfragemann
2005-11-24 23:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Peter, I appreciate it!

Can't wait to get started. Unfortunately it is a bit hard to find
Alphas here in Europe (Denmark), but I'll just have to keep looking for
a EV56 or EV6...

Regards
Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER
2005-11-25 08:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by jfragemann
Can't wait to get started. Unfortunately it is a bit hard to find
Alphas here in Europe (Denmark), but I'll just have to keep looking for
a EV56 or EV6...
Alphas are not that hard to find. Cheap _and_ modern Alphas are hard.
You can have Alphas for 20.- and up (and sometimes even for free).
eg. a DS10 6/600 with 1-2GB and disks for total < 800.- would be fine...
Even better would be a DS15 6/1000 but they are still out of scope (>10k)

Eg. http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5832401110 is a EV4
with enough memory (=>not cheap). But you won't like its performance
(which is enough to learn VMS but IMHO isn't for MOZILLA, JAVA, APACHE)

Eg. http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5831781651 is a EV6
with enough CPU/RAM/Disk. But you won't like its power consumption ;-)

and so on
--
Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
Network and OpenVMS system specialist
E-mail ***@langstoeger.at
A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist
Arne Vajhøj
2005-11-25 22:04:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by jfragemann
Can't wait to get started. Unfortunately it is a bit hard to find
Alphas here in Europe (Denmark), but I'll just have to keep looking for
a EV56 or EV6...
If you go backwards in old posts to 29-10-2005 16:51 you will
an Alpha in Denmark being put up for sale on Ebay.

Occasionally there are also Alpha's at QXL.

You can buy at Ebay DE/UK/US.

You can buy at www.islandco.com.

Arne
H Vlems
2005-11-25 10:06:24 UTC
Permalink
Jurgen,

check Ebay for Digital Server auctions. The Digital Server 3000, 5000
and 7000 series are equivalent to the AlphaServer 800, 1200 and 4100.
These so called white box Alpha's were intended to run WindowsNT only,
but a small (and easy to apply) software modification makes them run
VMS and Tru64. I have a Digital Server 5305 and it runs VMS 7.3-2
flawlessly. Since WNT support for Alpha was dropped, the prices of
these systems have gone down considerably. Of course there's no such
thing as HP support for VMS on a white box alpha so this solution only
works for hobbyist users.

Hans
jfragemann
2005-11-25 14:08:12 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by H Vlems
check Ebay for Digital Server auctions. The Digital Server 3000, 5000
and 7000 series are equivalent to the AlphaServer 800, 1200 and 4100.
Thanks for the suggestion. I can see that there are a couple on ebay
right now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5834413668
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5834417436

Currently, no one seems to be bidding. Which system would you choose?

A Digital Server 5000
Part number: FR-K8F5W-AA

* Alpha 5/533MHz CPU
* 128MB Memory
* 3 x 4GB SCSI Discs
* Graphics Card
* CDRom
* Floppy Disc

OR

A Digital Server 3000
Part number: FR-K7F4W-WA

* Alpha 500MHz CPU
* 256MB Memory
* 4 x 9GB SCSI Discs
* Mylex Raid Controller
* S3 Graphics Card
* DE500 Ethernet
* CDRom
* Floppy Disc
* No O/S?

As a newcomer, I have no idea which system is perferrable to run
OpenVMS on. Also, I understand that they would need to be patched.

Well, "5000" sounds cooler and better, and the enclosure looks nicer,
but choosing a system based on that would be lame ;-)

Thanks for your help guys. I dunno why more people aren't interested in
VMS.

Regards, Jürgen
Alan Adams
2005-11-25 18:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by jfragemann
Hello,
Post by H Vlems
check Ebay for Digital Server auctions. The Digital Server 3000, 5000
and 7000 series are equivalent to the AlphaServer 800, 1200 and 4100.
Thanks for the suggestion. I can see that there are a couple on ebay
right now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5834413668
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5834417436
Currently, no one seems to be bidding. Which system would you choose?
A Digital Server 5000
Part number: FR-K8F5W-AA
* Alpha 5/533MHz CPU
* 128MB Memory
* 3 x 4GB SCSI Discs
* Graphics Card
* CDRom
* Floppy Disc
OR
A Digital Server 3000
Part number: FR-K7F4W-WA
* Alpha 500MHz CPU
* 256MB Memory
* 4 x 9GB SCSI Discs
* Mylex Raid Controller
* S3 Graphics Card
* DE500 Ethernet
* CDRom
* Floppy Disc
* No O/S?
As a newcomer, I have no idea which system is perferrable to run
OpenVMS on. Also, I understand that they would need to be patched.
I'm not sure of the relative processor speeds of these two, but the 3000 has
twice the memory - always a good thing - and the ability to set up RAID
discs. No OS would not be a problem for a hobbyist application, as the
license is free, and the CDs cheap.

I hope somebody else will enlighten you about the compatability of the
graphics and raid controller with VMS - these can be tricky areas.

Alan
Post by jfragemann
Well, "5000" sounds cooler and better, and the enclosure looks nicer,
but choosing a system based on that would be lame ;-)
Thanks for your help guys. I dunno why more people aren't interested in
VMS.
Regards, Jürgen
--
Alan Adams
***@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.nckc.org.uk/
H Vlems
2005-11-25 23:02:47 UTC
Permalink
The choice depends on what you want. Remember that both systems were
originally configured for NT, not for VMS nor Tru64. The point here is that
the white box alpha's may have controllers built-in that were never
supported by VMS or in fact had crippled firmware so that VMS and Tru64
wouldn't run on them. This applies especially for SCSI controllers found in
the 5000 and 7000 models.
Just don't panic now, see below...

The 3000 has an on-board SCSI controller that drives four slots for SCA (80
pin ultra wide) SCSI disks and a CD-ROM. Just above the CDROM there's a slot
free for another SCSI-2 device (50 pin connector and power are available).

Advantages:
- the built-in SCSI controller is supported by VMS and Tru64. The Mylex RAID
controller is supported by VMS but you need additional software to configure
it (I'm not a Mylex fan ;-).
- it has 256 MB, depending on the size of the memory boards you may be able
to install another 256 MB. The 3000 has 8 slots, each four slots must have
the same sized boards.
- the graphics card is not mentiones, usually that's an ELSA Gloria (aka
TRIO) card. Decent performance for DECwindows, period (but you don't buy an
alpha to play games, right?).
- fairly low power consumption; electricity is expensive and high power
consumption means a lot of heat generated by the machine.

Disadvantages:
- the cpu is an EV5 model, as opposed to the EV56 that's inside the 5305. So
the 3000 is slower than than the 5000, more than the 33 MHz difference in
clock speed would suggest.
- internal disks need special trays, these trays are unique to the DS 3000
and AS 800 and not easy to get. Occasionally available on eBay, usually
together with a Fujitsu disk, the RZ1CF-CF.

The 5000 has an internal drive bay that accomodates 7 drives, the SBB
bricks. Usually configured as a split bus configuration. There's an onboard
CSI-2 controller that drives the CD-ROM drive that lives in one of the two
top bays. The other bay is empty and you can put a SCSI-2 disk in there,
power and connector already inside. Most 5000's come with a SCSI controller
that is only supported by NT.
Mine was fitted with a KZPCM (dual UW SCSI and ethernet) to make it work
with VMS.

Advantages:
- up to 2 GB (4 GB?) memory
- two (fast) cpu's
- two power supplies

Disadvantages:
- uses a lot more power than the 3000
- you may need to shop around for a VMS supported SCSI controller

The 5000 is my favourite Alpha (then again my favourite VAX is the model
8550 so go figure ;-). It's the fastest Alpha you can get for free, if
you're lucky.

Before you start bidding on eBay, try Terry Bail (***@rogers.com). He
has a lot of used DEC gear and is an honest guy to deal with.
Check my site: home.zonnet.nl/hvlems

Good luck,
Hans

"jfragemann" <***@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht news:***@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hello,
Post by H Vlems
check Ebay for Digital Server auctions. The Digital Server 3000, 5000
and 7000 series are equivalent to the AlphaServer 800, 1200 and 4100.
Thanks for the suggestion. I can see that there are a couple on ebay
right now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5834413668
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5834417436

Currently, no one seems to be bidding. Which system would you choose?

A Digital Server 5000
Part number: FR-K8F5W-AA

* Alpha 5/533MHz CPU
* 128MB Memory
* 3 x 4GB SCSI Discs
* Graphics Card
* CDRom
* Floppy Disc

OR

A Digital Server 3000
Part number: FR-K7F4W-WA

* Alpha 500MHz CPU
* 256MB Memory
* 4 x 9GB SCSI Discs
* Mylex Raid Controller
* S3 Graphics Card
* DE500 Ethernet
* CDRom
* Floppy Disc
* No O/S?

As a newcomer, I have no idea which system is perferrable to run
OpenVMS on. Also, I understand that they would need to be patched.

Well, "5000" sounds cooler and better, and the enclosure looks nicer,
but choosing a system based on that would be lame ;-)

Thanks for your help guys. I dunno why more people aren't interested in
VMS.

Regards, Jürgen
Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply
2005-11-26 10:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by jfragemann
A Digital Server 5000
Part number: FR-K8F5W-AA
* Alpha 5/533MHz CPU
* 128MB Memory
* 3 x 4GB SCSI Discs
* Graphics Card
* CDRom
* Floppy Disc
OR
A Digital Server 3000
Part number: FR-K7F4W-WA
* Alpha 500MHz CPU
* 256MB Memory
* 4 x 9GB SCSI Discs
* Mylex Raid Controller
* S3 Graphics Card
* DE500 Ethernet
* CDRom
* Floppy Disc
* No O/S?
As a newcomer, I have no idea which system is perferrable to run
OpenVMS on. Also, I understand that they would need to be patched.
Well, "5000" sounds cooler and better, and the enclosure looks nicer,
but choosing a system based on that would be lame ;-)
You definitely want the 256 MB for Mozilla. I don't think 128 MB will
be enough. 512 would be better (and definitely sufficient).
jfragemann
2005-11-25 18:49:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the replies.

Hans, I found a couple of these white boxen on ebay. Which one of these
would be preferrable to run OpenVMS and test web server software?

I understand that these machines need to be patched to run OpenVMS.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5834413668
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5834417436

The 5000 looks cooler though ;-)

Kind Regards, Jürgen
d b turner
2005-11-26 00:27:10 UTC
Permalink
hang on a mo.

Ebay is great but no warranty

we have alpha systems starting at $250

gosh guys ... a little fickle ain't ya???

DT
www.islandco.com


"jfragemann" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Thanks for the replies.

Hans, I found a couple of these white boxen on ebay. Which one of these
would be preferrable to run OpenVMS and test web server software?

I understand that these machines need to be patched to run OpenVMS.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5834413668
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5834417436

The 5000 looks cooler though ;-)

Kind Regards, Jürgen
Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply
2005-11-26 10:53:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by H Vlems
check Ebay for Digital Server auctions. The Digital Server 3000, 5000
and 7000 series are equivalent to the AlphaServer 800, 1200 and 4100.
These so called white box Alpha's were intended to run WindowsNT only,
but a small (and easy to apply) software modification makes them run
VMS and Tru64.
I second this recommendation. The modification is a one-time thing
involving a line or two you type in at the console. Runs Mozilla fine.

Look into the "OSU" web server as well.
d b turner
2005-11-26 00:30:13 UTC
Permalink
give me a call monday
I'll save a little hassle and hopefully we can get cheap systems going


david
island computers
usa 912 447 6622 x201
www.islandco.com
Post by jfragemann
Hi people,
I would like to try running a web server on OpenVMS. I have no prior
experience with this interesting operating system.
I would like a decent alpha system for playing around with and learn
more. I do not plan on using the system extensively for actual web
hosting, but merely to learn how to run web servers and various modules
such as SSL and SSH authentication under OpenVMS.
Any suggestions? Also, it would be nice if the system could handle
Mozilla as well, without too much sweat. I know this could be a problem
for the older versions.
Thanks,
Regards, Jurgen
Tom Linden
2005-11-26 00:23:29 UTC
Permalink
BTW, David, do you know if there is a way to get a Miata to automatically
power back up after the restoration of Power (following outage) possibly
through the artifice of a soldering iron? Not currently running any of
these
(tho still have a GL running Tru64, doesn't have that problem) but was
always
curious of any way to remedy Digital's design flaw.

Tom
Post by d b turner
give me a call monday
I'll save a little hassle and hopefully we can get cheap systems going
david
island computers
usa 912 447 6622 x201
www.islandco.com
Post by jfragemann
Hi people,
I would like to try running a web server on OpenVMS. I have no prior
experience with this interesting operating system.
I would like a decent alpha system for playing around with and learn
more. I do not plan on using the system extensively for actual web
hosting, but merely to learn how to run web servers and various modules
such as SSL and SSH authentication under OpenVMS.
Any suggestions? Also, it would be nice if the system could handle
Mozilla as well, without too much sweat. I know this could be a problem
for the older versions.
Thanks,
Regards, Jurgen
rcyoung
2005-11-26 17:30:40 UTC
Permalink
While not an Alpha, the SIMH Vax simulator can be a great VMS learning
tool while you shop for an Alpha. I have recently been giving the
simulator (runs on Alphas, Windows, OS/X, & Linux) some tests, and I am
most impressed. We have Oracle Rdb running successfully, and have used
the C compiler successfully. The best feature is of course, ITS FREE.
Plus, you can get it now w/out having to wait. OpenVMS is most readily
obtained through the Hobbyist program ( media ends up costing $30 US).

Ebay is an excellent source for inexpensive Alphas. We've obtained both
an Alpha 2100 and a 2100A off ebay for only a couple of hundred each.
The shipping ended up costing as much as the system n each case ( they
are heavy). A smaller system (and less expensive to ship) is a 2000/axp
which is about the size of a standard PC .
rcyoung
2005-11-26 17:33:04 UTC
Permalink
As a way of learning OpenVMS, try looking at the SIMH Vax simulator. It
runs on Linux, OS/X, Windows, and even on Alpha OpenVMS.

I have been testing it on OS/X and I am impressed. We have Oracle
(formerly DEC) Rdb running, and have compiled programs successfully on
it.

Best of all, its FREE. You still need a copy of Vax OpenVMS, but you
can get one through the Hobbyist program for about $30 USD.
s***@yahoo.com.au
2005-11-28 02:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi RC,
Post by rcyoung
I have been testing it on OS/X and I am impressed. We have Oracle
(formerly DEC) Rdb running, and have compiled programs successfully on
it.
Where is the OSX version available from? What machine do you have it
running on?

I am hoping to use a Powerbook G4 1 Gz 1 Gb RAM. Any comments?

Thanks

Stuart
rcyoung
2005-11-28 03:51:29 UTC
Permalink
I have it on both an eMac and a dual processor G3, both running Tiger
10.4.3.

I got the source (V35) from http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ , and
compiled it with the gcc 4 compiler from the Xcode 2 developer CD from
Apple. You have to build/install libpcap (http://www.tcpdump.org) as
well beforehand to use networking (This is buried in a couple of
"obscure" places in the docs incl some comments in less-than-obvious
places in the source code, so be sure to look them over carefully)

A few things that I came across

1) http://www.wherry.com/gadgets/retrocomputing/vax-simh.html has
instructions for building/installing on Linux, which served me very
very well. I would look at them.

2) You can not telnet/ftp/ etc to the "host" Mac from the emulator, but
you can go anywhere else. The same behavior is mentioned under Windows.

3) You can create the CDROM disk images (say of the VMS install CD)
using the Apple Disk Utility (making a dmg file). Just be sure to turn
off compression first.

4) On Macs you are limited to a 2Gb disk at max, but you can have "a
bunch" them, across multiple "emulated" controllers. They are woking on
getting the limit fixed. The limit does not exist on Linux or Windows
(I think this is right anyway).

5) There are 2 EPROMs (ka655.bin & ka655x.bin) images. The "x" version
is for larger memory support ( > 64Mb). Be sure to add -DUSE_ADDR64 to
the compile line.
Alan Greig
2005-11-28 18:05:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by rcyoung
2) You can not telnet/ftp/ etc to the "host" Mac from the emulator, but
you can go anywhere else. The same behavior is mentioned under Windows.
You can install a tap (look on sourceforge for tun/tap) virtual ethernet
driver. Simh thinks it has a real ethernet card and the host operating
system thinks the guest is at the end of annother real ethernet link.
I've got this to work under Windows and Linux and I've seen reports of
people using tap drivers on a Mac.
You can then use IP between the host and the guest as well as to the
outside world.
--
Alan Greig
Bob Koehler
2005-11-28 13:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
Hi RC,
Post by rcyoung
I have been testing it on OS/X and I am impressed. We have Oracle
(formerly DEC) Rdb running, and have compiled programs successfully on
it.
Where is the OSX version available from? What machine do you have it
running on?
I found porting SIMH to OS X trivial. Mostly adding OS X to #ifdef
for other UNIX. I didn't keep my copy.
Post by s***@yahoo.com.au
I am hoping to use a Powerbook G4 1 Gz 1 Gb RAM. Any comments?
Go for it.
jfragemann
2005-11-29 18:35:11 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the suggestions!

I'll check out his emulator. Seems to be the cheapest way of getting
started.

Can I have it run DECwindows as well? :-)

A Alphastation 500/500 with 256MB RAM went for US $258.00 on ebay
recently, to me it seems a fair price though.

Regards, Jürgen
Dave Froble
2005-11-30 00:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by jfragemann
Thanks for the suggestions!
I'll check out his emulator. Seems to be the cheapest way of getting
started.
Can I have it run DECwindows as well? :-)
A Alphastation 500/500 with 256MB RAM went for US $258.00 on ebay
recently, to me it seems a fair price though.
Regards, Jürgen
David Turner may have some DS10L systems available near that price.
That would get you an EV6. Not many PCI slots though, and no Ethernet
on the motherboard, I think.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. Fax: 724-529-0596
DFE Ultralights, Inc. E-Mail: ***@tsoft-inc.com
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
j***@yahoo.com
2005-11-30 02:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
Post by jfragemann
A Alphastation 500/500 with 256MB RAM went for US $258.00 on ebay
recently, to me it seems a fair price though.
Regards, Jürgen
David Turner may have some DS10L systems available near that price.
That would get you an EV6. Not many PCI slots though, and no Ethernet
on the motherboard, I think.
What you don't get is video. The DS10L has one PCI slot. No on-board
video but two DE600 ethernet ports. You have a choice of using the
lone PCI for a video card or for a SCSI card for storage. If you opt
for video then your only storage option is the on-board IDE and either
a 10GB or 30GB drive (standard choices - probably other sizes would
work but no guarantees). If you go with the SCSI card in the PCI slot
then what you need to do is use an X-window connection from another
system for video (or the serial console port). On my XP1000 I replaced
the IDE CD-ROM with a SCSI CD because the IDE was dog-slow (even
compared to a 12x RRD46!). The DS10L IDE interface should be a newer
design and hopefully faster, but I would be wary unless someone says
it's reasonably fast. You can get a combo card that has video and SCSI
but even from Island it's around $900 so it's pretty pricey. The DS10L
is nice, but there are some trade-offs to be aware of. That
Alphastation 500/500 wouldn't be too bad. It's an EV56 and people have
said the Java performance isn't too hot but everything else should run
okay. I have several EV56's in the 500/533 MHZ speed and they work
nice. I haven't gotten into the newer things like Java, PHP, etc yet
though.
Keith A. Lewis
2005-11-30 17:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Froble
David Turner may have some DS10L systems available near that price.
That would get you an EV6. Not many PCI slots though, and no Ethernet
on the motherboard, I think.
The DS10L has 2 ethernet ports, not sure if they're directly on the mobo but
they don't take up the 1 PCI slot. So yes you can have both ethernet and
video, or ethernet and SCSI, but not SCSI and video.

--Keith Lewis klewis {at} mitre.org
The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.
Larry Kilgallen
2005-11-30 18:23:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith A. Lewis
Post by Dave Froble
David Turner may have some DS10L systems available near that price.
That would get you an EV6. Not many PCI slots though, and no Ethernet
on the motherboard, I think.
The DS10L has 2 ethernet ports, not sure if they're directly on the mobo but
they don't take up the 1 PCI slot. So yes you can have both ethernet and
video, or ethernet and SCSI, but not SCSI and video.
Isn't there a one-slot PCI "combo card" to handle both (and a third
item) ?
j***@yahoo.com
2005-11-30 19:39:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Kilgallen
Post by Keith A. Lewis
Post by Dave Froble
David Turner may have some DS10L systems available near that price.
That would get you an EV6. Not many PCI slots though, and no Ethernet
on the motherboard, I think.
The DS10L has 2 ethernet ports, not sure if they're directly on the mobo but
they don't take up the 1 PCI slot. So yes you can have both ethernet and
video, or ethernet and SCSI, but not SCSI and video.
Isn't there a one-slot PCI "combo card" to handle both (and a third
item) ?
There is a Video/SCSI combo card but it ain't cheap. Island sells it
for $899. Others are much
more expensive. I've not seen it on Ebay. I believe there is also a
"3-way" video/scsi/ethernet
card, but with 2 ports on the motherboard most users won't need
another. BTW the video
on the combo card is a Elisa Gloria or equivalent I think.
Marc Schlensog
2005-12-01 10:52:06 UTC
Permalink
On 30 Nov 2005 12:23:19 -0600
Post by Larry Kilgallen
Post by Dave Froble
David Turner may have some DS10L systems available near that price.
That would get you an EV6. Not many PCI slots though, and no
Ethernet >on the motherboard, I think.
The DS10L has 2 ethernet ports, not sure if they're directly on the
mobo but they don't take up the 1 PCI slot. So yes you can have
both ethernet and video, or ethernet and SCSI, but not SCSI and
video.
Isn't there a one-slot PCI "combo card" to handle both (and a third
item) ?
Yes, there is. The Intraserver ITI-6000-series. I have one of those
boards lying around because my XP1000 doesn't seem to like it.
It contains two SCSI-busses (SYM53c896), two digital 21143-NICs and a
Permedia2 graphics chip. I don't have the VGA cable, though.
Anyway, if anyone is interested, I could give it away for a lot less
than 900 bucks. Feel free to email me. It is located in Germany.

Regards,

Marc
Tom Linden
2005-12-01 13:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Schlensog
Yes, there is. The Intraserver ITI-6000-series. I have one of those
boards lying around because my XP1000 doesn't seem to like it.
It contains two SCSI-busses (SYM53c896), two digital 21143-NICs and a
Permedia2 graphics chip. I don't have the VGA cable, though.
Anyway, if anyone is interested, I could give it away for a lot less
than 900 bucks. Feel free to email me. It is located in Germany.
Doesn't like it? Is it an SRM issue?
Marc Schlensog
2005-12-01 13:39:56 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 05:20:12 -0800
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:52:06 +0100, Marc Schlensog
Post by Marc Schlensog
Yes, there is. The Intraserver ITI-6000-series. I have one of those
boards lying around because my XP1000 doesn't seem to like it.
It contains two SCSI-busses (SYM53c896), two digital 21143-NICs and
a Permedia2 graphics chip. I don't have the VGA cable, though.
Anyway, if anyone is interested, I could give it away for a lot less
than 900 bucks. Feel free to email me. It is located in Germany.
Doesn't like it? Is it an SRM issue?
Yes. It used to work before upgrading to 5.9-1. After that, SRM stops
during initialization at E7.

Marc
Tom Linden
2005-12-01 14:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Schlensog
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 05:20:12 -0800
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 11:52:06 +0100, Marc Schlensog
Post by Marc Schlensog
Yes, there is. The Intraserver ITI-6000-series. I have one of those
boards lying around because my XP1000 doesn't seem to like it.
It contains two SCSI-busses (SYM53c896), two digital 21143-NICs and
a Permedia2 graphics chip. I don't have the VGA cable, though.
Anyway, if anyone is interested, I could give it away for a lot less
than 900 bucks. Feel free to email me. It is located in Germany.
Doesn't like it? Is it an SRM issue?
Yes. It used to work before upgrading to 5.9-1. After that, SRM stops
during initialization at E7.
So it would work if you went back to prior version? What was added for
5.9-1?
Tom
Post by Marc Schlensog
Marc
Marc Schlensog
2005-12-01 15:57:45 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 06:50:26 -0800
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 14:39:56 +0100, Marc Schlensog
[...]
Post by Marc Schlensog
Yes. It used to work before upgrading to 5.9-1. After that, SRM
stops during initialization at E7.
So it would work if you went back to prior version? What was added
for 5.9-1?
Tom
I guess so. It would keep me from installing OpenVMS, though. I don't
know what was added. I'm not even sure, which version I had before
(5.6, if I'm not mistaken). Something similar occured with an
Eiger-system I once had. The board got recognized in AlphaBIOS, SRM
refused to go beyond E7. Talking to the guys who manufactured the system
(Force Computers), I found out that there was some SRM-limitation which
prevented it from seeing devices behind a PCI-to-PCI-bridge.
My Miata MX5 didn't even want to see it at all, which, on the other
hand, might have been related to the broken chipset.

Marc
Martin Vorlaender
2005-12-01 03:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by jfragemann
I'll check out his emulator. Seems to be the cheapest way of getting
started.
Can I have it run DECwindows as well? :-)
When run under Linux, and doing some magic with tun/tap devices, I had
simh's VMS connected to an X server running on one of the virtual
terminals, displaying the DECwindows login screen and all.

The details have crashed with the notebook I had this working on, but
it sure was cool to have.

The problem with simh's networking is that it uses the pcap library for
it. Pcap puts the ethernet card in promiscuous mode and filters
incoming packets only. To connect simh to its host computer you'd need
two ethernet cards.

cu,
Martin
--
One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules!
One OS to find them | work: ***@pdv-systeme.de
One OS to bring them all | http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/
And in the Darkness bind them.| home: ***@radiogaga.harz.de
Alan Greig
2005-12-01 13:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Vorlaender
When run under Linux, and doing some magic with tun/tap devices, I had
simh's VMS connected to an X server running on one of the virtual
terminals, displaying the DECwindows login screen and all.
This works under Windows as well.
Post by Martin Vorlaender
The details have crashed with the notebook I had this working on, but
it sure was cool to have.
The problem with simh's networking is that it uses the pcap library for
it. Pcap puts the ethernet card in promiscuous mode and filters
incoming packets only. To connect simh to its host computer you'd need
two ethernet cards.
Or just use a virtual tap interface. Again this works under linux and
Windows. Right down to Windows saying "a network cable is unplugged"
when I shutdown simh.

I used two network cards until I discovered that my colinux windows tap
driver was equally usable by simh.
Post by Martin Vorlaender
cu,
Martin
--
Alan Greig
Martin Vorlaender
2005-12-05 14:28:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Greig
Post by Martin Vorlaender
When run under Linux, and doing some magic with tun/tap devices,
I had simh's VMS connected to an X server running on one of the
virtual terminals, displaying the DECwindows login screen and all.
This works under Windows as well.
Which tun/tap driver does that use?
Googling only turned up OpenVPN for me that might include such a beast.

cu,
Martin
--
| Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules!
Microsoft's answer | work: ***@pdv-systeme.de
to OpenVMS is | http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/
Windows NT 10.0. | home: ***@radiogaga.harz.de
Alan Greig
2005-12-05 15:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Vorlaender
Post by Alan Greig
Post by Martin Vorlaender
When run under Linux, and doing some magic with tun/tap devices,
I had simh's VMS connected to an X server running on one of the
virtual terminals, displaying the DECwindows login screen and all.
This works under Windows as well.
Which tun/tap driver does that use?
Googling only turned up OpenVPN for me that might include such a beast.
Specifically I use the version installed by colinux which identifies
itself as "TAP-Win32 Adapter V8 (coLinux)"

This is part of the OpenVPN distribution. I note in the OpenVPN faq
there is a note of a problem with OpenVPN 1.6 and Windows XP SP2. This
is fixed in the latest version.

====
http://openvpn.net/faq.html
I've installed/upgraded OpenVPN 1.6.0 on XP SP2 and I can't find the
TAP-Win32 adapter icon in the network connnections panel. What's the deal?

On Windows XP SP2, the TAP-Win32 adapter icon is missing from the
network connections control panel. A workaround is available in OpenVPN 2.0.

This issue occurs because of a bug in XP SP2 which causes device drivers
having HWIDs of 3 characters to fail to export network adapter icons to
the network connections panel.

The workaround was to change the HWID of TAP-Win32 adapters from "TAP"
to "TAP0801".
=====
--
Alan Greig
b***@instantwhip.com
2005-12-01 13:40:53 UTC
Permalink
call Dave at Island computers ... he has DS10Ls
which would be perfect ...
d b turner
2005-12-02 00:55:15 UTC
Permalink
we also have the xp1000 whose price has just dropped thru the floor!


I could do an XP1000 EV6 500 with 512MB for less than $1500 with 10/100, UW
SCSI and 9GB Disk
No license though...

David
Post by b***@instantwhip.com
call Dave at Island computers ... he has DS10Ls
which would be perfect ...
Larry Kilgallen
2005-12-02 14:29:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by d b turner
we also have the xp1000 whose price has just dropped thru the floor!
But have you changed your policies to allow mail orders ?
Post by d b turner
I could do an XP1000 EV6 500 with 512MB for less than $1500 with 10/100, UW
SCSI and 9GB Disk
No license though...
David
Post by b***@instantwhip.com
call Dave at Island computers ... he has DS10Ls
which would be perfect ...
j***@yahoo.com
2005-12-02 17:36:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Kilgallen
Post by d b turner
we also have the xp1000 whose price has just dropped thru the floor!
But have you changed your policies to allow mail orders ?
Larry,
You're like a Scottish Terrier with a sock... you never let go... ;^)
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